Denied The Fishing Ultimatum

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by doctorpeterson, Apr 29, 2017.

?

What changes would you like to see? Pick Two!

  1. Reversion to the Flat $50/fish

    25.8%
  2. Doubling of Prices

    48.4%
  3. Decrease in Price of Star Rods

    32.3%
  4. Adding the AquaCulture mod to ECC

    9.7%
  5. None of these, fishing is fine as it is.

    6.5%
  6. Add Better MCMMO Drops

    29.0%
  7. Add Salvage

    16.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    We all know that ECC has dropped off in popularity. Some would say it is due to Minecraft's drop in popularity as a whole. But I believe that it is due to the fact that ECC has had a few changes that have made the server less fun to play on. One of these is Fishing. In the old days, Fish were all worth an indiscriminate 50 ECD apiece. It was then changed to this:

    Regular Fish: $10
    Salmon: $15
    Pufferfish: $20
    Clownfish: $25


    I and my fellow fisherpeople were able to double these prices a while back. But it is still not enough to make fishing a sustainable source of income. Star rods are still subpar compared to other star tools. The below options could be used to correct these issues:

    -Revert fish prices to the original indiscriminate $50
    -Double current fish prices
    -Make star rods significantly cheaper
    -A plugin similar to the Aquaculture Mod
    -Adding Salvage
    -Adding Better MCMMO Drops

    Any of these changes would correct the currently abysmal state of Fishing on ECC. Remember to vote on the poll, and comment below your personal opinions. Let's Make Fishing Great Again!
     
    #1 doctorpeterson, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2017
  2. GameDevJeremy

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    Please don't add the AquaCulture mod, I support the increase in fish prices but we shouldn't add a plugin.

    Double fish prices and decrease the price of a star rod slightly.

    Other than the plugin, I support this.
     
  3. Twingirlaimee

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    The AquaCulture mod would be cool but the server is to laggy to support that. In my opinion we should go to $50 flat rate or even doubling prices that's find and decrease star rod prices.
     
  4. Nicit6

    Nicit6 N6
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    I think if we were able to make the mcmmo drops not terrible it would go a long way to improving fishing without any price changes
     
  5. Mission001

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    Add a way to Salvage Leather Armor too.
    The salvaging suggestion was closed because Minecraft 'salvages' items in game. it does the iron and gold armor, but not leather.
     
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  6. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    Good Idea! I will add that as a poll option!
     
  7. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    Good Idea! Added to poll!
     
  8. 314

    314 Irratioπal President, former ServerAdmin
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    I have a dislike for axioms, so... time for some math.

    Based on [1] and [2] we can estimate that Luck of the Sea V (as I believe star rods use level V) has the following chances to catch fish:
    Fish - 50.5%
    Salmon - 21.0%
    Clownfish - 1.7%
    Pufferfish - 11.0%

    Based on [2] and [3] - plus the fact that I have been told about the 1.11 Lure V being equivalent to the old Lure VIII - we can estimate that players can catch one fish approximately every 5 seconds, i.e., 720 per hour.

    We can therefore estimate the following values per hour:
    Fish: 363.6, i.e., 7272$.
    Salmon: 151.2, i.e., 4536$.
    Clownfish: 12.24, i.e., 612$.
    Pufferfish: 79.2, i.e., 3160$.

    [2] states that a catch drops 1-6 experience orbs, I will therefore use the mean value of 3.5 and estimate 1$ per XP orb.
    720 * 3.5 = 2520 XP = 2520$.

    Total: 18 100 $/hour.

    I am not using fishing as a source of income and am therefore unable to say how accurate this theoretical number is. However, a while ago I posted my empirical data concerning melon swords. Short summary: Melon swords earn approximately 17 880$ per hour, although this is experimental data compared to this theoretical amount for fishing; the value for melon farming may be higher than that (although the other tests from my experiment were relatively close to the maximum values based on the Minecraft wiki).

    As I mentioned, I don't have much experience with fishing. Due to this I am not going to argue for or against this discussion, I just wanted to provide an educated guess of the possible income.




    The first method could earn up to 720 * 50$ = 36000$ (plus 2520$ for XP) per hour (which is too much in my opinion).
    Based on my calculations the second method is almost equivalent to the first (31160$ + 2520$ = 33680$ per hour).

    I haven't been able to find a server plugin for this modification yet, all I can find are Forge mod versions.

    Definition of "ultimatum" according to [4]:
    Depending on the interpretation, "ultimatum" may not be the best term to describe a suggestion.




    Sources:
    [1] http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Enchanting#Luck_of_the_Sea
    [2] http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Fishing
    [5] http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Enchanting#Lure
    [4] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimatum
     
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    #8 314, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  9. Mission001

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    Try and catch that many fish a hour, i dare you.
     
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  10. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    While I agree with many of the things you've stated here, 314, I have some counter-statements.
    1. In the fishing income per hour, you didn't take into account the time between the fish biting and it being reeled in. Junk also makes up a major part of fishing catches, being about 7%, and traps being another 7.5%. Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible to make that amount per hour on this server with a Star Rod, because, unlike melon farming, fishing isn't just holding buttons down.
    2. The above facts hold true for your second analysis as well. The multipliers would provide far less income than your estimates.
    3. The mod idea was sort of spur of the moment. I cannot remove it from the poll, however, even though it may not be available for servers.
    4. The use of the word "Ultimatum" was implemented because of the many failed attempts at fixing the fishing system. Note the italicized "especially", which implies a common, but not all-scenario addition to the original definition. "Ultimatum" implies finality; each one of these things could be used as a start to end the fishing problems plaguing ECC.

    Thank you for your input on this post, great to have someone as influential as you post here!
     
    #10 doctorpeterson, Apr 29, 2017
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  11. JamieSinn

    JamieSinn Retired Lead Administrator/Developer
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    We cannot install mods - plugins != mods.

    Just thought I'd clarify that.
     
  12. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    Thanks Jamie, I will remove the section about the mods!
     
  13. 314

    314 Irratioπal President, former ServerAdmin
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    Perfectly valid point. I didn't do that because I simply have no data available to base this on.

    Junk and treasures are included. The percentages I have mentioned amount to 84.2%, junk and treasures make up the remaining 15.8% of vanilla fishing. However, I do admit that I didn't account for mcMMO traps, partially due to the fact that I am not sure how the plugin is set up to affect the vanilla percentages. I decided to exclude relative error calculations and aggressive/conservative estimates from my post for the sake of simplicity.
    I could have added some calculations regarding the item values of fishing items (especially enchanted books), but 2AM is definitely not the right time to do that.

    That is true. However - assuming that this suggestion's intention is to boost fishing to approximately 20000$ per hour - this means that fishing has to make approximately 10k per hour at the moment to warrant a price increase by 100%. This means that my relative error would need to be around the 45% mark. However, due to my lack of knowledge about fishing I am simply not able to calculate the likelihood of such a large approximation error.



    I guess I should emphasize something here:

    The intention of my post wasn't to prove how much fishing actually earns; my math posts are usually supposed to evaluate the upper limit of possible income (although I should have probably use the maximum XP value instead of the mean value). The limits I calculate are (in most cases) dictated by the game mechanics and can only be affected negatively by other influences. I simply don't have the ability to know whether the actual value is closer to 90% or maybe only 20% of my upper limit.
     
    #13 314, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  14. GeorgiePOORgie

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    I think we should keep things as close to vanilla as possible. Plug ins just mean more work for the two people who are already overtaxed.

    The other issue is that prices are based on the maximum a person could make. For example a person with a star rod who can repair the tool whenever. Others down the ladder have to take time to find someone to repair their tool. (Which is why I hardly use my Eff7 now lol)

    Lower the rod prices! 350-500k I think. Somewhere in there. That's a large sum of money for one tool. And the only way you're going to make 20k per hour using (omitted) :eek: which isn't allowed or wasting your night watching a fish fall and clicking. No one wants to fish for more than an hour.. right? It gets boring quicker than mining or even melon farming. In my opinion.

    TLDR: Lower tool prices would be cool & keep it Vanilla MC.
     
    #14 GeorgiePOORgie, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  15. stigarose

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    Autofishing has nothing to do with it. If you sit there for an hour with your eyes glued to the screen, hand on the mouse (or in my case keyboard) you'll catch the same amount as any kind of autopilot. You will never make 20k/hour fishing at this time.

    It's no different than wasting my time watching my EFF7 tear through the mining world, or melon sword though a melon field (infact i make more money cuz i can't bring myself to sell mining materials and just don't care for melon farmining much). Grinding is just that, grinding. It is just as it stands now you don't make as much star fishing as you do the other ways. However you do get a crap ton of experience! So if they raise fish prices they'll likely have to nerf the experience substantially (although hopefully not completely or the exp market will go crazy).
    I disagree with lowering tool prices, I think better to raise output a bit, double current fish prices and/or improve drops. I don't think they should ever lower star tools below 1500 nstars or else the market will get watered down and star tools less special. Raised fish prices would be good for builders/residents too offering, another, better way to make money they can start with a standard rod or work for a lure 3 rod/unb 3 rod and actually get a little farther, so this isn't JUST about the star rod.

    I do agree with keeping it vanilla and NOT making more work for the administrators/owners.
     
  16. steveshizzle

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    Economically, raising fish prices and lowering rod prices isn't reasonable as they're complimentary goods so prices would move parallel. But since it costs nothing to produce star rods, we could theoretically keep those prices constant without seeing too much of a market impact, although I don't know if I can say the same for non-star enchanted rods which would see a big value jump which could add to the impact on xp prices (since xp and enchanted tools are complimentary too). I haven't seen the xp market in a minute so I don't know if that's necessarily something we want or not but I would take that into consideration.

    As for the prospect of raising prices minus economic impact, I'm always happy to promote more diverse forms of income besides mining and farming which are boring af.
     
  17. Nicit6

    Nicit6 N6
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    The inherent flaw in your numbers are that you based them off of vanilla fishing. mcmmo drop rates (at 1000+ fishing level) are the following
    [​IMG]

    This means that your total chance of an mcmmo drop is 20.11%, as compared to your vanilla chance being 15.8%. From what I can tell these numbers are affected by Luck of the Sea, which would result in an even lower chance of catching a fish.
     
  18. 314

    314 Irratioπal President, former ServerAdmin
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    This includes - as you mentioned - the effects of LotS, as I have absolutely no idea how those values are affected by it.
     
  19. doctorpeterson

    doctorpeterson President
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    I would also like to point out that the MCMMO Splash Potions of Poison make Fishing a riskier profession than farming. One wrong step or motion and you're dead. Also, food costs are decently high, since you must constantly eat to heal yourself unless you buy Potions of Healing.
     
  20. 314

    314 Irratioπal President, former ServerAdmin
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    Well... poison potions aren't deadly, and as long as you don't move it isn't really necessary to heal and therefore purchase food (unless you only want to use it once you are done fishing, but then you could easily jump off a 3 block tower to refill your hunger and health).
     
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