Not sure exactly what you are wanting General - why can we not use the warn system privately and also have the moderator make a chat message that the behavior is not tolerated here on ECC. This takes care of both issues in my humble opinion - An official warning that can be tracked by staff and an acknowledgement to all users that it is being taken care of. Please forgive my lack of knowledge of this from a staff perspective. Just to clarify, I think every player on here knows when things are being addressed or not based on the continued or lack thereof behavior. I also do not know if I personally care if there is public humiliation (after a fair warning) as I feel that is part of what is missing in our lack of punishment enforcement currently.
While they can do both if they want to, the issue with doing it that way is it doubles the work for the same warning, and it can increase the response time from the team. That is going to have to be something the staff team discusses with itself to determine if that trade off is worth it. However, to avoid all the discussion about how warnings should or should not be changed over this particular rule violation, we should just go to the root cause and review the rule. I still feel most of the skirting that happens for this rule is because the rule can be interpreted to say they user doing it is within the bounds of the rule, and that makes enforcement much more tricky. Also, there is no need to be sorry for the lack of knowledge, it allows you to have a different perspective, and that can and is a very valuable thing. The reason I bring that is because being a community is a strong bond that all players of this server share, and plays a key role in all actions that go on here. If the staff publicly humiliate someone, it starts to tear that bond between the rest of the players and them. All users should have the ability to make mistakes, and no need to draw extra attention to them when they are made. However, there needs to be enough done in public that anyone watching can be sure it is being handled, and not they got lucky when no staff were looking. In addition, we need to be able to allow people back into the community once they have had their punishment, as if we, the users, keep them on the outskirts once their official punishment is done, they may go back to breaking rules to get the attention from the community, as they may be ignored . If someone, in a fit of anger, decides to swear, it is the ideal situation to calm them down with the least amount of fuss possible, and to not leave any long lasting effects on their standing with members from it. Also, I feel I am getting too off topic from the point of the suggestion explaining my stance, so if you want me to further expand on this point, I will gladly continue it in a conversation or in-game.
Wait what are you talking about @generaljoecool? It seems you are completely unaware that the /warn system in-game IS private and that the big red [WARN] message is only seen by staff and the user who was warned! You also seem to be doing a lot of assuming here, so it's pointless for me to continue reading because we are not on the same page at all! I am not, nor have I ever referred to 'another option', I've been talking about the /warn system the whole time and @Mission001 even tried to tell you, but you assumed that /msg was being talked about. I did get your point before, that you feel the rule about allowing slip ups could be take out of the rules, but you feel the punishments I've suggested are too harsh. Gotcha! Thanks for your input.
I don't understand why kicking someone is a large step with moderation. It takes you probably less than a minute to get back on and it really only matters if you are in SG. Even then, if you are warned and continue even though asked to stop, you should not get warned a second time. You proved that a warning did not mean a lot to you and you didn't care about it. A kick will for sure get the user's attention. I also do not understand where you are getting this "public humiliation" from. Warnings are already said in global and are already no secret. If it is as private as other users are saying, then it would be better. I do not agree that /warn is the best way to go, but I agree that we need more aggressive moderation. Yes, there does need to be a connection between users and staff, but staff needs to take a dominant role. If staff quietly say "Please do not _____" every 5 minutes for the same person, staff's warnings become a joke. Nobody listens to staff because they are so pacifistic. If there is more aggressive moderation than perhaps warnings would actually mean something.
More aggressive means of Moderation is proven to make users want to leave the server, because users don't like it when they feel Moderators or Admins are abusing the power they are given to Moderate the server. The more aggressive Moderation tactics does in turn in end in Moderators and Admin who will and do commonly abuse said power because they feel they have more leeway in how they choose the handle the situation. Up until I don't know how long the /warn system did put a public message for everyone to see, which is why it was a concern for General, and I also did not agree to its usages because like General said it created a rift between the Staff and normal users. As for the suggestion itself, while the server is becoming more and more focused on catering to a younger and younger server I don't believe such measured are needed to enforce in my opinion a pointless rule, these children already know that language and trying to shelter them from it does no body and favours. I understand that the people putting these suggestions forward are parents that don't want their children seeing such language in a public and open manner, but honestly they are going to hear it from other means way more than you can really control in this day and age.
I do intend to reply fully to this but it may be later when I have had some time to properly think about it, but I just wanted to clear something up regarding /warn. The command has the option of either warning people in private or public. The staff team, when using it followed the procedure that if the person being warned was in a global channel (ie. swearing in global), the /warn'ing would be put in that channel publicly so everyone could see. The only times a /warn was private was if the offence took place in one of the spawn local chats. Staff can see these wherever they are in the server, but they aren't channels as such so a /warn couldn't be directed to them, so they were sent privately. It would be possible to send all [WARN]s privately but what we found with private warnings (especially in spawn local) was that people were then saying things like 'Erm... staff?', 'Why wasn't he warned?'. 'typical, staff aren't doing their jobs' etc. If we used /warn privately we would end up having to 'double warn' - Send a private /warn and then say something in chat as well. I personally think that that is quite a lot of work for staff and is unrealistic, especially when chat is busy on-peak. There were a fews reasons why we shifted away from using /warn: As others have mentioned in this thread, it creates a gap in the community between staff and players. Phys wanted staff to be more a part of the community than just handing out cold, impersonal [WARN]'ings. Some people saw it as an 'achievement' to get a /warn. And in a related sense, I used to get people asking me how many they had had in the last X days/weeks/months etc. They saw it as an accomplishment, almost something to be proud of. It made staff become lazy. The addition of /warn and staff being able to see the local chats of spawns meant that HUGE numbers of questions from players, especially new joiners, were going unanswered. Staff grew to only watching [RSL] from elsewhere on the server and only reacting to things which needed a warning as they could just stay where they were and use /warn. Now by not using /warn, staff are much better in actually going to spawn and we have seen an increase in the number of questions being answered. I know that this doesn't really address the actual suggestion - I would like to have a think first before replying fully - but I just wanted to clear up the confusion about /warn, how staff used it when we did, and the reasons from our point of view why we drifted away from using it.
To those players that continually break (or massively bend as there always loopholes) simple server rules and would want to leave if the rules are enforced - I say goodbye. Our staff should really be able to focus on issues that are helpful and positive to players who do follow the rules. They should not be babysitters for those too immature or stubborn to follow instructions. This suggestion is presented by a concerned parent, however, what you may have missed is in the case of my nieces and nephews - they choose where they want to play (for the most part as of course there are some limits) and unfortunately this server is not for them at this time. How many rule abiding players do we lose to those that break the rules? It is just not that hard to respect the rules - I have seen so many instances of constant cursing or inappropriate chat and it is just uncalled for. I have even seen players purchase tens of thousands in inappropriate shouts in order to get their point across.
I really don't understand why we even bother about swearing. Honestly, people will learn it one day or another. I am absolutely fine with anyone seeing swear words. It is a part of life. An important one.
Just because other places decide to let things slide, we do not have to go along with everyone else. I do not have to swear, and you can curve your tongue if you actually try to. People think its just fine to swear and cuss, but its not just about you, would you rather have a server with more people with a strict no vulgar language policy, or less people on here where people can just run their mouths? People dont need to swear and say rude language, Whats the difference about using vulgar language and cussing at people and using racial slurs at someone? nothing, but because we live in a society where it seems common place to accept swearing, we let it slide more, People should rather think about what others think rather then just themselves and wether they think its ok. Respect others, its not hard.
I do not support offence directed at someone. But just saying swear words isnt that offensive. Racism is another thing completely.
It's not about 'shelting' my child from the language. It's about teaching him right from wrong. It's about making the server's image look better. It's about bringing up the atmosphere of the server. It's about so much more.... just from a small rule change. First off, my kid knows all the cuss words out there and at one point even made his own up! I had a hard time breaking him from that as he's autistic and didn't understand why he couldn't say these words. He used them all the time, to adults, to kids, to lil babies. Do you think at any point in my journey of breaking him that I said, "Slip ups are ok"? You've already said that this server is catering to the younger generation, so why would you even allow a lil lead way for cussing, they will abuse it because that's what children do. And also if there is no consequences for their inappropriate actions, they will keep doing it. Abuse of power you say? Just like when a parent punishes a child for wrong doing, the child thinks that the parent is being unfair and they 'hate' them at that time. Same thing applies here cause the users here are children! They are going to hate the staff when staff punishes them, they are going to kick and scream and throw a fit cause it's so unfair. Best thing to do is what staff tells us to do when another player is making a big deal out of something... ignore it! It's not abuse of power, it's a staff member punishing a user for breaking the rules. Yeah, lets go easy on the members where who break the rules! Then why have rules? Clearly nothing will happen if you break them. I can't believe people are telling me that I am overreacting to people constantly breaking the rules and that a kick isn't the way to go. If you look down just a post from yours, where Dewsy says that people at one point collected /warns like trophy... that right there should be enough to tell you that it's time to move on to the next step. They were collected cause there that's all that happened, but the next step is a kick and as harsh as it may be.... it's time to be a bit more stern with these kids. God forbid that they have to log back on after breaking a rule twice! I would like to come here and not see a group of kids cussing cause it's cool and because they will only be warned over and over for it. It drags down the atmosphere here and makes the server look trashy. I'll say it again, my suggested punishment isn't set in stone. I and a few other members don't see it being too harsh, but anything is better than just constantly warning a member with nothing else to follow. I myself could care less if the warn is public or not. The verbal warnings are already public and people seem fine with that, but when I made my suggestion, a member brought up the issue of public humiliation. You do fall in that line of if you say it publicly then the person is being made an example, but if you do it privately, you're being too impersonal. But it has to be one way or the other. Would be awesome if a currently system sent out a message just saying that the situation was handled, but in private it warned the user. But we don't have that. Let me just say though, I didn't know staff had to let the public know their moves and actions. Since when do staff discuss that kind of thing and let the public know what's going on? Isn't that what the complaint section is for? If a user is unsure that a situation was handled, they can screenshot and file a complaint and then someone can just dismiss the complaint saying it was handled in-game.... just like they do now already. *Shrugs* Like I said above the whole collecting warns... that just proves my point. They collected them cause there wasn't anything else to follow. Apparently cause kicking a player who cusses everyday is a bit of an overreaction and abuse of power. Let me ask this... what is a kick for? I was under the impression that it was for a user who was warned and still broke the rules. I didn't know it was reserved for the dark prince right when he's getting ready to eat your soul! Sorry, sorry... I'm just a lil frustrated and confused here. It's been proven that continuous warns do nothing and I don't see a step between a warn and a kick, so naturally I thought kick was an appropriate action to take when warnings fail to get the point across. Let me just say this using vulgar language is nasty. It's rude and disrespectful. It adds so much hate to a sentence and should not be used when playing a friendly game with family. I mean do these kids go over their friends house, sit down to play monopoly and then cuss around those parents? No, lol... cause it's rude and disrespectful and completely uncalled for! You can say the exact same thing without saying cuss words.
Again, you are simply being disrespectful to others just in that sentence Thats your opinion, try looking at it from someone else opinion for once... Not everyone believes all your opinion and im pretty sure your never always right either.... Yes its your opinion and i appreciate you posting it, but surely your understand how other people think it is offensive, and it isnt needed, you can get your opinion across a thousand other ways before having to use vulgar language.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. As to why we bother with it? It is a rule and should be enforced which is what this suggestion relates to. You have every right to make a suggestion of your own that that rule be removed from the server and then it would be a different situation. I understand you have no problem with seeing swear words, however, that does not make it right for everyone. Perhaps you could explain how you feel that cursing is an important part of life, and possibly more importantly, how it so necessary when playing a game that is mainly being played by children. Cursing, in general, is used to express displeasure, anger, irreverence or contempt and therefore disrespectful and inappropriate in a server environment - in my humble opinion. Do we as a community really wish to convey a negative atmosphere? I prefer to think we would want to provide a positive environment in which to play in.
How is that sentence offensive? I do not welcome racism or cussing at people. Who do I offend by saying: "Oh, fk!" In fact, i was trying to be less offensive by saying this. Swearing comes out together with anger, yes. Sometimes it feels better after sharing your problems. And people most likely do that in chat. Also we have many people who aren't children. Keeping swear words inside when unhappy is hard and you need to let them out. While on this matter why not make /ch problem where all your swearing goes But not always swearing makes a negative atmosphere. Saying "holy fk" is simple surprise. I just don't think we should be strict about it. This suggestion wants more control of language. I am fine with the occasional slip-ups allowed. Not your "fk, fk, fk, fk look at me"
In the examples you gave, you can actually substitute other words into the sentence rather then having to use bad language If your mad, feel free to shout at your computer, you dont have to type everything your thinking, some things are best left unsaid Oh fk can be oh bummer or ahh! Or you dont have to say anything. holy fk can be holy moly, omg, or wow! Or again, dont say anything... Every situation that uses a cuss word can have that cuss word replaced with something else or doesnt hav to be said at all... Some people just think they have to say everything they are thinking, some things are better left unsaid? Again, most younger people will probably disagree with the statement above, and most older people with tend to agree with the statement above.
Also, I'm not sure if people are aware, but it is a rule already, no vulgar language. I'm only bringing up a situation that is progressively getting outta hand. I don't mind the occasional slip up myself, I'm not a saint, but certain members here have proven that they need to continuously take advantage of the rules and I feel something needs to be done about it, thus this suggestion was born. Reading this topic also shows you just how people carelessly regard the rules when the rules state that using it excessively is not tolerated, but because it says slip ups are allowed and staff only verbally warn, people have come accustom to do it more and more. If only you could see the "<mod edit>" image that was there. 3 different people dropped the F word just for the fun of it in chat. Cause you know.. they were all slip ups. http://www.ecocitycraft.com/forum/threads/user-complaint-knears2000.120340/ Again this topic is about a loophole in the rules being taken advantage of. Not about the rule that says no vulgar language. If you think it's ok, then do as AdmiralD has suggested and makes a suggestion to remove that rule altogether.
Why is it that in society in this day and age people use words all the time like "kill", and "torture". People will say, "Waiting Om that line was torture!" or "That test grade killed me". Words like those that have such evil meanings as their definitions. Yet, if I say the "F bomb", all bets are off and I'm now plagued with titles like "sailor" or "rotten tongue", while all this time, that person just said "torture" or "kill". Just am observation on society that I think is worth mentioning.
Swear words come in all different flavors and colors and, of course, they should all be kept to a minimum, but I really think there should still be a case-by-case basis to solve this kind of problem. When it comes to something as dynamic, spontaneous and deliberate as communication can be, I really don't believe there should be a "systemized" way to handle people who happen to curse on chat. Seeing this suggestion was created by someone from a staff perspective who has probably never faced problems when it comes to acceptable behavior on ECC (I'm sorry if I'm assuming this incorrectly), I think it can be tough to realize that regardless if it's public or not, intended to be friendly or not, even something as "small" as a warning from staff can be quite intimidating, especially for these new "harmless" users who do not intend to break any rules in the future, and accidentally let out an ambiguously bad word that hadn't caused any real problems elsewhere. However I don't mean it in the sense that the user thinks "Oh my, I didn't know I was breaking a rule! Lol, my apologies friendly mods, it will never happen again!", instead they think "Dang I've been here for like a day and the mods already hate me, I'm scared". Don't get me wrong, if they keep going at it then it's absolutely necessary to warn them, but I don't believe someone should be yelled at whenever they make a small, honest mistake. If someone keeps "slipping-up" constantly day after day, then it is Staff's responsibility to take note of that kind of behavior and act upon the user accordingly, and not continue with this "new day so count returns to 0" system that has unconsciously survived for such a long time.
I believe that is the point of this suggestion. Actually enforce the rules and punish those that continually "slip-up" over and over, day after day.
