Oh, I'll add something on the opposite side: I strongly prefer mining and main worlds being not PvP. One thing is life and environment being harsh, another is other (powerful) players being allowed to be jerks taking advantage of a noob (who might even be playing from the other side of the world with a terrible ping). One of my best memories as a noob was going to mining world, seeing a sign "ask a mod for crops!" next to a carrot crop, actually asking for a mod in global, and being welcomed by a friendly mod a few seconds later, gathering free food for me. Then, I could happily go working hard.

 

I'm pretty sure it once said in the wiki that this is not an easy come easy go server or something like this is not for those who want everything quickly. Someone please find the quote.

 

Cheers, although it turns out to be a voting site.

 

How OP are iron tools tho... lol
And a lot of builders don't know about repair.

 

I agree, I had a pool of lava near my home I'd jump into as a builder to reset my food.

 

I agree with all parts. I remember it being 16 porkchops back in my day. It wouldn't ruin the food economy because I believe even while running my food would run out prior to the kit cooldown being over. However, I think 8 or 10 would be more suitable due to the abundance of baked potatoes nowadays.

I really can't believe there's so much debate about iron tools. A lot of people say how easy it would be just to get iron tools. That's the point. The only thing different from stone tools and iron tools is they last longer and can mine diamond. We're cutting out maybe 5 minutes of a several month grind to get the top ranks. Upgrading someone's tools to iron maybe lets them get resident what, 10 minutes sooner? If they even stay that long? To say this ruins the whole experience of ranking up is nonsense. If it really were that overpowered, everyone would use /kit starter for free tools. Would you? Would you do /kit starter tools as soon as it refreshed to get an iron pickaxe? If there were free diamond tools I know I would. But iron tools are worthless once you get your first diamond pickaxe. We're just cutting the step that, frankly, gets repetitive. The point of /kit starter is to help new players. That's all we're doing. Helping new players, but not breaking the balance.

 

They don't need the help. You said it yourself that it takes like 10 minutes to get iron tools. If you can't even be bothered to take that time then maybe an economy server isn't your type of playstyle. The point is that you start with the weakest tools available and work your way up.

 

Then why not make them wood tools :p

 

but you don't start with the weakest tools... you start two tiers up. Above just a fist and above even wood tools. As for 10 minutes, well, wouldn't that be 10 minutes sooner that somebody can actually begin interacting with the market, being productive, beginning to buy things from shops... etc etc.

 

Well,

• either we settle that the starting tier must be the lowest (i.e: puch wood with bare hands);
• or we settle that the starting tier must be the highest (i.e: you start with star tools);
• or we settle that the starting tier must be on a reasonable point between the two extremes.

Usually extremes are not a wise choice; but the exact center is no wiser as well (I wish no German people be killed, some freak wishes all German people be killed, that doesn't mean it would be a wise compromise to kill half German people).

The whole point of this discussion is whether iron is a better compromise than stone. The only way to find a good compromise and balance is doing some quantitative analysis. Here's mine.

How long does it take to get wooden tools? Roughly two minutes.
How long does it take to get stone tools? Roughly five minutes.
How long does it take to get iron tools? Roughly half an hour, probably somewhat less.
How long does it take to get diamond tools? Roughly a couple hours, probably more.
How long does it take to get maxed diamond tools? Roughly a few days or more.

Which is the optimal duration for the very first task/challenge one has to go trough upon joining the server? What's the time scale to be compared with?
I think the time scale is the time it takes to go get started with the theory, i.e: go trough the whole tutorial (~5 min) + understand spawn, portals and warps (~10 min) + get started with chat channels and commands (~5 min) + get started with the rules (~15 min).

Why so? Why should the time for the first task roughly equal the time to get starter with the theory? Because:

• if the very first task is much easier/faster to achieve than the time it took to learn about the server, you'll be under the impression the server is lame, easy and totally unchallenging;
• if the very first task is much harder/slower to achieve than the time it took to learn about the server, you'll feel overwhelmed and have the impression it's impossibly challenging.

So: start with stone tools, so the first thing you have to do (i.e: get higher tier iron tools) takes roughly half an hour or less.

Now, I admit my numbers are very crude estimates and might be unconsciously biased, and it's very possible that, with actual realistic numbers, my "starting with stone is better" conclusion might turn out wrong: if that turns out the case, I'll swiftly change my mind. But we gotta get realistic, faithful -maybe even third-party sourced- estimates.
IMO, this discussion has reached the point where every word that could be said has been said, so the only productive thing left is doing numbers.

 

Oh, there's something else we didn't take into consideration.
Unless you find someone who gives ereps for free, you are going to use your pick up to the breaking point and then make another one, because it would be silly to pay $100 to repair something that is only $22.5 worth.
The duration of iron is only roughly twice that of stone, but its worth in materials is 150x: if you're using tools up to their breaking point, using iron to mine stone would be idiotic*. When I used to play in singleplayer, with no erepair, stone was mined with stone picks and iron was used only to mine those ores that couldn't be mined with stone picks. It was somewhat slower, but very material-efficient.

So, if we're giving iron tools as the starting gear, we're basically having the player start with something that will soon be replaced with something worse: that's not a very pleasant experience, IMO.

All this, unless you can always and reliably find someone doing free erepairs in a snap of fingers: yes, we're a friendly community, but can we guarantee such a free service 24h/24 to everyone?


*on the other hand, cobble and planks are worth the same, so preferring stone tools over wooden tools is obvious.

 

Lol you can vote, get $2,000+ and go buy diamond tools for way cheap.

And the efficiency difference in diamond tools rather than iron is so great that once I get diamond tools I never use anything lower again.

Maybe enchant wooden/stone tools then?

Personally, after seeing this thread... I'm considering starting up my own kit where I give builders diamond tools for free and advertise in trade. If it's so gamebreaking we'll see what happens when I give the builders unb iii diamond picks. :)

 

@Expipiplusone I'm not going to reply to your post above because frankly it's a gross overcomplication of the issue at hand, which your opinion is best summed up from:

Firstly there's really no difference between the times to do this in SSP and on ECC, ore generation is not different and the time it takes no normally acquire stone tools is negligible. Your point is that if someone doesn't like having to spend time making better tools, then they won't like ECC, and therefore we shouldn't give better tools. However... says who? Why should we judge someone's aptitude for ECC based on something common to nearly every variation of minecraft, even singleplayer? Why not let them actually experience the server first? Helping players earn their first bit of money means they can visit our player market and have stuff to buy and sell - interacting with the actual economy portion of our server that is really what all of us stayed for. Not really sure how simply exiling them for their first little bit of gameplay in any way provides a benefit there.

 

There are some (mostly :p ) great ideas and suggestions discussed here.
I personally feel that any change to the food supply would be welcome for our new players. The food available at the mining world entrance is a wonderful way for our staff to interact with our beginning players, but of course they are not always available.
As for tools, I think that iron would not be a bad addition.
I fashioned the builder bonus after the one that the server used to provide until issues came up that caused the demise. It was changed from just giving builders funds to a bonus after they made some effort in gaining the Resident rank. I have found that the program has been much more successful after this chance and finding that giving people everything helps nothing in my humble opinion. The players that request the bonus after ranking up are much more appreciative and tend to have greater success. I am grateful for all of them and those that help them find their way to the program (Lady :D )

tl:dr: Helping builders = good Too much = bad