I <3 mendi
Even though I don't agree with him all the time, I have mad respect for him for posts like this

 

Is this not sort of the system we already have?

I do have a personal experience with a mod situation. I don't really want to talk about it because that is against the rules, but suffice it to say, it did not reflect to me that certain mods were considered 'hacked clients', and that I should heavily evaluate a mods attributes. I installed it for one purpose, without realizing that it had a possible sinister purpose. This was an honest mistake I feel very silly about, but I was very novice to gaming with minecraft.

What I'm trying to say is though a global punishment system sounds nice because it sounds like it heavily detours potential felons, the truth is that such a system you used in hopes of preserving fairness becomes the very inequality you hope to avoid. This has been the case time and time again through multiple societies.

Now, aside from that, consider the technical aspect of what you are asking. That more people have to appeal personally to andrewkm. Andrewkm has recently delegated some duties to other ranking staff members. This means that with the way things currently are, he is already quite busy and is searching for ways to free up his time either for his personal life or to possibly concentrate on how to improve ECC.

You also need to consider something else. This is a game environment. Most of your concerns revolve around a fictional monetary denomination that at the end of the day, has no real value, and some day, hopefully not soon, hopefully not in several years, will eventually be completely worthless and non functional. The only people you could argue are truly hurt by felons are people who donate money to the server -- but it is a critical stipulation by the contract they sign upon donating real money, that they not only understand what they are putting money into, that they understand they have no say in what happens with that money beyond what they hope to receive as a DONATION feature in return.

The truth is, if you want to do severe punishments, you need a good reason. Economic damage isn't that, because this is fictional!

The only good reason must have to do with the flesh and blood individuals that log into and out of this environment... and given the youthful nature of many, how does harsh punishments not only avoid emotional damages to all parties, and also successfully (with low maintenance) interest community members to pursue good conduct both in this environment and others.

 

The argument that it isn't real so therefore shouldn't he treated as a real malfeasance is illogical.
This it's an econ server
The ecd may be virtual but the theft of it and subsequent punishment for it should be just as real as if real work rules were broken. We aren't going to put them in irl jail orurk probation, but in game equivalents are perfectly justified
Your particular infection was an honest mistake. The type of serial offenders I talk about ate the people that should get these kinds of punishments

 

This thread is asking for blanket insta punishment.

You are now asking to weed out the parties that deserve severe punishment... This is the system that is already in place.

 

Not really. Want me to find instances of people successfully appealing multiple bans for economic exploitation mods?

 

It may be in place "in theory" but in practice it's not and that is patently wrong and it needs to change

 

Change to what?
This thread is asking for a system where there are no more temp bans, only insta perma bans.

If the fact that this is a fictional environment is not enough to disdain against rash action, then I'll accept your scenario for now becuase I actually am interested in learning something more about how all this affects everyone.

Let me present another facet to this.
Besides your pride, to what degree and how often does use of a hacked client cuase an egregious ingame economic impact that requires immediate, instant, and likely permanent address? I need examples, not unfounded accusations.

What exactly are the direct economic impacts you are saying you are being offended by?

Xray certainly affects spawners.... I am more afraid of organized posses combing territories only to destroy all spawners, instead of just spawners not setup, as it is a more hostile effort.

Fastbreak - idk exactly what that is, but it sounds like it affects item gathering. Server sell/buy prices are not affected like a real market, prone to inflation, so this doesn't directly inhibit anyone elses /sell ability.

Fly, well I guess they can gather netherquartz and wood faster... and speed while farming (which goes back to the sell issue)...

Is 'counterfiet' money used in deals with such felons repossessed by the server? - directly affecting person-person transactions?

 

Can someone else enlighten onsceen
I don't want to have to swype it out on my phone

 

I disagree with this 100%. I am terrible at tactful posts in getting my point across. I am so much better at oral debates. But I'll try to give you my general feelings on the insult you posted accidently. The slight exagerations are to make the point more apparent rather than really mean 'all or nothing'.

If I put in my hard eanred time into this server and then find out that cheaters are able to make more than me without punishment, you bet your ass that I am hurt. F'n Pissed Off. I may not donate money, but I play with the assumption that this is a fair game for all players involved. I mean, why bother playing fair if cheating is not punished severely?

This is an economic server. And to maintain the "trust" of that economic system, there must be rules in place that keep the balance of the ECC dollar. Too much money, and there is no point. Too little and it becomes too hard to play.

I came to this server instead of a "creative" server, BECAUSE of that economic tease. I like to think of myself as climbing the "corporate rungs" and "getting ahead". I like to believe I am "competing" on a level playing field, where we all have the same advantages/disadvantages and how we play determines or "status".

Just because it is fictional doesn't mean we should toss the rules aside and say anything goes. If that were the case then just make pumpkins sellable for $100 each and all nstar items 10 stars apiece. I know this is going a little far. But in my head I feel this is what we are saying when we don't hold cheaters accountable. When we allow them to appeal with the same "I'm sorry, I didn't know what it did. My little 6 month old brother stole the computer and hacked into my account and installed it and used it. I didn't know it was against the rules. It will never happen again." B!%$S^&%. Multiple times at that.

The point is, the cheaters make my 'struggle' pointless. And to say that I am not 'hurt' by it is completely false.

**I want to be very clear. I have made my stance known before on this. This is my perosnal opinion only. In no way do I think the mods are to blame. I believe they are doing an Outstanding job and have the Utmost repsect for them and their duties. I also do not hold Andrew in any lesser light. We may disagree on how this is handled, but it is his server and I play on it according to his rules. I may advocate changes, but I understand his word is final and respect that. **

**sry if this dereailed the current discussion. I am at work and typed this inbetween my job duties. It may be outdated with all the posts I see that have posted today :p**

 

There is no need to make it a severe punishment when there is no evidence or proof other than "they have a hacked client." As OnScene said, users may get mods, mod packs, and heck - even hacked clients - that are not allowed, without knowing their full potential or all of the features. Just because someone has something ECC does not allow, does not mean they should be severely punished just for having it.

Three days is plenty of time for Staff to investigate any warning flags, logs, and suspicious activity prior to the ban. If they find anything, then it should be more severe, depending on the severity of the broken rule(s).

Staff cannot severely punish people based on assumptions. Absolutely cannot. Which is what you appear to be suggesting.

 

Well, I'm all for more severe punishments in certain cases. A week off the bat seems decent to me for having a hacked client or an appeal to andrew but andrew might get tired of that quickly. Frankly, I do think our three day system is not dissuading anyone at the moment.

 

What about the people that used hacked clients more than once?
Those are the kind of people that should get permabanned.
if not that then at the very least spot checks on their client.
i REALLY like my idea of time stamped screen shots of the UI being sent in a private PM to staff as a way to just make sure everything is still up to snuff
like being on probation.



besides where is it being suggested that permabans take place on assumptions?

 

I always thought this was a silly topic/rule.

I think the main distinction that should be made here is "People who get caught using hacks on ECC" and "People who get caught using a hack client, but not utilizing any banned hack feature".

Since there isn't a test we can do to catch everyone who has a hack client installed, punishing people who make silly mistakes or post screenshots with hud elements showing, shouldn't be punished unless there is proof they actually used a banned hack feature.

I don't see why we should punish the 10% of the community that use hack clients and take screenshots and leave the other 90% who use hack clients and aren't silly enough to expose themselves.

Disclaimer: my opinion here doesn't reflect the official views of the ECC staff team.

 

So no one is punished ever is the better of the two choices?

 

So, in your opinion, if I install an xray mod and "don't use it", I should be able to play on ECC with it installed? And only if you can catch me using it should any action be taken? Even if I take a screenshot of a conversation for other purposes with it fully installed?

The same for any other 'hacked client'?

Knowing there is such a punishment for installing/using those mods, you would think the sensible thing to do would be to not install them in the first place if you plan on playing on ECC. If you take the chance on "use first and ask later", you need to be prepared for the consequences.

(That's if there was any lasting ones. As it stands now, players don't really care because it is safer to plead ignorance than ask first then get caught.)

You know the saying: It's easier to ask forgiveness/apologize than it is to get permission.

 

If someone uses, not has, a hacked client more than once, and there is evidence/proof that they have somewhere used the feature(s), then by all means, give them a severe punishments. However, the severity of the punishment would depend on what exactly they used, the time between the times they used it, other felon history, and many other aspects. However, I do vouch for it still being fairly severe compared to most other punishments, despite other circumstances. That is, of course, if there is no sort of probation or investigation period.

Directly from the first/original post. The suggestion as a whole (including the entirety of the first post) implies that if anyone is even found HAVING a hacked client, they should be permanently banned. If this is not what the suggestion actually is, the first post should be reworded/rephrased/have some clarity.

---

EDIT: I see this whole thing as, "How would you feel if your family car - a car that several people drove regularly - had illegal substances in it, and those substances happened to be found while you were in the car, but you were not the actual owner of them, and it was actually another family member's?"

Basically, what I have been trying to say is: Why punish someone [severely] for HAVING something that they may not have USED? Hacked clients and mods that are illegal on ECC can have so many features - someone innocent, someone who doesn't understand games, or isn't tech-savvy can easily install something with a feature ECC DOES allow, despite it having features that are not allowed.

Just because they HAVE something that isn't allowed, does not mean that they USE it. Staff cannot - or, very least, should not - [severely] punish someone for simply OWNING something that they may not have USED, unless investigation has proven that they have USED it.

 

These days it is fairly easy to catch people abusing client mods, or just prevent them from working.
Spigot has a anti-xray feature that makes direct xray pretty much useless. There are other plugins which are designed to work off statistics, meaning that if a player finds 20% more ore per mined block that most normal players they get a big red flag sent to all staff. NoCheatPlus is currently set to 'no alert' mode, where if a player tries to use a hack that is blocked, the staff don't get notified. NCP blocks something like 70% of client hacks on the market. It can be configured to ban or kick people for attempting to use mods, or even just alert staff when it 'thinks' someone is abusing. We could easily set this up to give a 'top 5 most likely to be hacking' list.

With all of these options available, why punish people who accidentally advertise the fact they use a client?

 

the community doesn't see those built in features
the community doesn't see any resulting punishment or warnings given for automatically generated redflags.
all we see is what is posted in the complaints and appeals section.

from our perspective (or at least some of us) that they get off way easy.

"we could easily set this up to be give a 'top 5 most likely to hacking list'"

DO
THAT
NOW

but let it be transparent
tell the community who got banned for what.
sweeping it under the run doesn't dissuade potential law breakers.

 

^
People need to know if it is bad or good in a more harsh way. Not as harsh as hurts them as making it more memorable. People forgot rules and forget what a person tells them but if they saw what actually happened to another player it would stay in their mind (at least for longer).