Minecraft Name: lurkblader Suggestion: Give scammer 10% "tax penalty"(fine) to server. Temp-ban isn't enough punishment. Reason: Reason why I thought about this, is because I felt like for scammers, temp-ban is all the punishment they get, if they give back the money to victim, and that's not even that much "suffering" for some people. Lot of scammers think "I will just take a shot this time, and hopefully this guy(victim) fails to get evidence being newbie on these scam cases.. If he gets evidence? OK then all I gotta do is give back the money. No harm for me kekeke... I will take another shot later on." And the here is the point. "There is nothing to lose" when you get caught. I mean for some people, getting temp-banned for 3~5 days are not even that much punishment that makes them "suffer" the pain.. It's not like ECC is somekinda drug, that you feel side-effect of shaking hands or something if you can't get online to server.. I mean for some people, yes it is like addictive drug, and side-effect comes(you ecc-junkies ^.^/) lol, but my point is, not everybody is. Scammer can think "temp-ban? I don't give a s**t. I can still play tons of other exciting type of games for that time, and comeback later." and forget about ecc for those 3~5 days for real, and then come back later. I am telling you guys, for these type of players, it's not even "punishment" it's like taking a break or vacation away from ECC... So what we need, is to make scammer feel like they need to pay "fine" or "tax penalty" whatever you call it, to server. I personally think 10% of scam money is perfect amount. So like, if scammer scams 100k, not just giving back 100k to victim, he also owes 10k(10%) to server, and he will be given more enough times to pay back that tax, and staff decides as usual for how long time this person should be given for tax payment due-date. If we apply this new rule of punishments, I think it can greatly decrease, scam cases, and make them think it's not "If I get caught? Nothing to lose for me. All I gotta do is give back.".. And also these taxes also help slowing down the inflation to economy, cuz money is just disappearing(going to server)". In order to apply this, I know it is bothersome work for developer, but there must be command to pay to server.. But I don't think it's that much complicated thing to make. Or just let staff make them take out money from them directly, just like when staffs are taking rank-up application fee from player, or whatever. Either way, point is this new punishment rule will help to make better society of ECC. -----------[Additional Edit]--------------- I personally think first time scammer, those tax can be waived. Cuz it may be too cruel for humanity point of view. They can still transform. But for more than 2nd and 3rd time, they need to pay something to server. and if they keep doing it, than tax can go up to 15% or something. In case like, if Tax amount is too large, because scammer scammed too large scale, and too many people? Than make them pay tax sepereately step by step with enough given time, like if tax amount is 300k total(which would be very rare.. 3mil scale of scam? wow.. this guy need Jesus to reform..), than give them time for a week for every 30k payment. Or whatever. These kinda details can be fixed and added, after it gets applied for a while through staffs' discussion, but anyway. My grand point is "temp-ban" isn't enough. We need financial punishment too. Any Other Information: Link To This Plugin:
I would think that cases strong enough to warrant such a strong reaction would also be enough to warrant a full out ban. Instead of on the 3rd time they have scammed someone you tax them why not just ban them outright? This is a tough punishment for a crime that already has a good alternative, total ban. Can you elaborate on where this fits in with the current system of tempban leading into full bans?
like in circumstances that scammer scammed someone, and get-banned, but when he post ban-appeal, staff is telling him to give back the money to victim, and if scammer does follow staff's order, to give back, than he gets unbanned. That's how it works currently, but what i am saying is, staff additionally tells him to pay 10% of what he scammed to server as well, and then un-ban him, and keep on track whether he is paying the tax or not in given amount of time, and if he doesn't pay tax, or if staffs tries to fine him but his balance isn't enough, he gets banned again, cuz now he owns debt(fine) to server. and like I said, to first time scammer, it won't apply. Enough for explaination? Main point is, giving back the money to victim, isn't enough(especially for multiple scammers)
Well ECC wouldn't apply such a system because it is very hands on for staff. I just can't see them adding in all that work to keep track of such things. Why not instead debt their balance into the negative for these cases? You scammed? Now you got -50K in your bal. Go earn back up to $0. That way it won't add any work to staff, which I think would be a negative since scammers take up staff time, which means they help out the community less and such. I do see what you mean by adding it in after a ban appeal was successful though I think they need to be harder on scammers since their impact on this server is far reaching damage that we just don't need.
I kinda like your idea too about part "Now you got -50K in your bal. Go earn back up to $0.". That's one of the way that they can forcefully take fine(tax) from scammer's balance. I always thought about making this scammer's balance to negative.. I like the idea. Anyway, the main point isn't about how they pay their tax. I am just pointing out that we need "financial punishment" as well to scammers. That's the main point.
+1 to the cause, -1 to negative balances. Even though I do believe its a good idea, negative numbers are a pain sometimes. I don't believe its possible to have a negative balance on ECC, kind of like a bank account with overdraft protection. Negative numbers would require either a reworking of the code, or research into if the current code could support it. When you start throwing negatives, things can spiral into a big headache quick.
Oh Ok. Then let's forget about negative balance thing. Actually it's just that I personally liked it, but I didn't expect any chance that staff or andrew would like it, and also I didn't know that it would be that much hard work in developing point of view. Anyway, "How we should take fine from scammer" is what staffs should discuss. I personally think, if staffs confirms that this scammer has enough money to also pay the fine(tax), then take it right away, just like how they are taking rank-up fee, when they are handling rank application... And if scammer doesn't have it enough, they give time to scammer for while, and take it later... if scammer fails to earn and keep that much money by the due-date, then ban him right away.. Simple as that. I think this is the best way. Since this is "fine" charging to criminals, to server, I think staff has to have power to forcefully take money out of scammers balance. Because this is "Punishment". Punishment should be punishment. We can't just wait them to voluntary pay. And also importantly, this tax taking action from staff should happen AFTER scammer did pay the money back to victim. Because money going back to victim should be prior thing. not to tax.
Great idea Too bad I've been suggesting it for like a year already It's never Ever Ever Ever Going to happen
The positive of the negative balance is that it is a one time work load. Once developed its done and staff can easily subtract tax into negative numbers. It is the alternative to a system where staff have to enforce every tax manually which would prove to be infinite work as each new case is a new work load. Working it into the system would be less work than the current suggestion.
Someone with a negative balance is more likely to just quit and give up, although if your balance gets so far into negatives that this is a problem, then you already scammed a lot. But in the end, I would want to avoid this altogether. What about adding 10% or something to the amount that has to be paid back to the user? Let's say player A scammed player B 160k, player A gets banned and he appeals. He then has to pay player B 176k back.
That... I like It is nice and clean as well as taking away the proposed increase in work load for staff by making it work within the already established system. Very nice kuke.
Great idea Kuke! Could you also make it something like 25% for the second offense? As a side note: Any chance there could be some stricter guidelines on paying back? An example would be instead of $100k paid in a month to be $25k paid per week for one month. It is frustrating to see a scammer come back on and wreck havoc for a month or more and this would show that there is a true desire to be a contributing member of the community.
@ the side note, it's a possibility, I would have to talk to the other GAs and see what they think. And it's always possible to add extra costs. 25% seems like a tad bit much for just a second offense, I would say more like 15%,
Personally.. As a person who got scammed so many times, and hate scammer sooo much, but never ever been on a side of being scammer, I really really like this idea, and I really hope this is how the new rule applies for financial punishment, but the thing is.. In neutral, cynical, realistic point of view, I have to say I am "-1".. I think it's still better to pay to server, because it can simply be exploited, reversely. If, cases get revealed later on, that victim side was actually the one who was villian and scammer to harrass player who he hates, and make him pay the extra 10%, this new 10% payback law can be exploited.. I mean it is unusual case, but still, what if the case is accidental pay? And also, just like loaning out your own money for easy money profit, people gets to expect that someone who wouldn't quit would scam him, so he can earn easy money which is such an ironical situation. People's civic awareness will be lighter on how they think about gravity of "Scam" on how they should be careful about scam, and also player's "credibility" can get less important, because this "stress" gets lighter as being victim of scam. "Credibility" and being trustful person on deal, is big part of ECC society now, because people want to simply avoid getting scammed. And it's because there is absolutely nothing good but only getting "stress" when we get scammed. That's why trustful dealer can gain reputation, and people choose him easily. If there is certain "merit" things, it can get little bit weird on how people start to think and see about being scammed. And also importantly, generally for some victims, they prefer to get back money, and scammer just stays un-banned, rather than not getting back the money and scammer gets banned. Which means, if scammer had fighting conversation with victims, and now he feels bad to pay extra money to victim, and that fact can possibly influences scammer's thought and mind to just give up everything and quit and not pay back, which is bad outcome for victims. Scammer's weird ego can make him feel like he has "lost" on paying more money back to victim, and he just choose to give up everything and quit. But if law makes scammer to pay to server, that's little bit different. He is paying back to government of this community, for what he has done. And it gives symbolic meaning that he gets officially punished for his crime. Not being lost by personal fights between players. I maybe horrible on explaining, and some people might think I am thinking too deeply or too far away, but that's what I just think. It's too fast change on taking side of "victim" on scam case. I do agree that victim needs more power and rights against scammer during the process time of getting the money back, more than current system, but paying extra amount of money isn't something that we should apply to fast. I guess paying to server is the first step to change for meaning of "financial punishment". And by mean "victim needs more power and rights against scammer" I really really mean it. Like for example, victim has right to track on scammer's current balance, by asking staff, while scammer's given time to make money to pay back. Or like victim can officially demand to make scammer unable to play lotto. And if scammer s balance got confirmed that he has enough amount of money to payback, victim can officially demand to staff to give order to scammer on paying back RIGHT NOW, not until waiting on due-date. Something like these.. But I do agree that it is good to make scammer pays extra money to victim, IF that scammer has very very bad record on doing multiple times, and record is so obvious that he had clear intentions on scamming.
Thank you Kuke for considering the payment option - I actually believe that it has been used a couple of times before - possibly Revan? As for the percentages, I 100% trust your judgement and now that I think of it, 25% could be a little steep - that number of course coming from a member of the community that would prefer all scammers and trolls would learn quicker how to "play nice or be gone" and that we could all live in a utopian society
Sorry to sound like a a-hole here but.... If someone is going out scamming people, why should we give a single f*** how they feel? They are the ones who warrant the need for these threads and ideas. They are the reason people don't have trust, and I don't blame them. You want to be that guy trying to make a profit off of people who don't get sufficient evidence(and only pay it back if they do) then I have no sympathy for you at all. I know forcing members out of the community isn't the master plan for ECC, but I really think it should start being considered. I know I haven't been here too long so I could be mistaken, but it seems like this past month or so has had an overflow of scamming complaints. It's time for the legit players and mods around here to say nay to these shenanigans. It's about time to toss out the "poisonous potatoes".
