Not so long ago someone robbed my melon sword, it was a tough battle trying to prove this person guilty. I had screenshots but the problem was I called the melon sword " it " and not melon sword, or sword, or msword. even though the pictures clearly show i had the sword in one picture then gave it to him in the second. What i am proposing is that we add a couple of new things so that justice may be served to people who steal. 1. Reasonable Doubt: If the evidence does not specifically show the ( item name) was stolen or taken by the defendant, he can not be considered guilty but if does show the defendant agreed to give something back and shows the ( item name ) was in the hand of the owner and then in the hands of the defendant it would be safe to say that the person could be guilty which will lead into an investigation. in other words its reasonable to doubt that the defendant is innocent an investigation will happen 2. Investigation: if the complaint is reasonable to doubt that an item was stolen it will go to the first step of an investigation, questioning 2A. Questioning: the first step of the investigation is allow the prosecutor ( the guy complaining or a 3rd party representing ) to question the defendant ( the guy being complained on ). Questions for example could be; "where did you get that item" "what were you doing around this certain time" "how long have you had this item" etc. After the questioning is over a moderator has 3 options; close the case with the defendant innocent, ban the defendant, or if the questioning was not enough to prove the defendant guilty but was able to make the defendant still look suspicious, the mod may choose to got step 2 2B. Searching: If the mod chooses to continue the investigation the second step is allow a moderator or higher , search the defendants inventory and/or chest(s) to see if the defendant has possession of the item that prosecutor said he stole. If the item that the prosecutor said he stole is found, it must be named in order to confirm its true. if the item is unnamed or not found the case will be closed with the defendant innocent. I am open to any opinions, if you feel like there should be some changes, something to add, or something to be removed feel free to leave it in the comments, I will have a look at them.
I am currently staff and I handled your complaint, The issue is that we need screenshots, and you pmd me ingame stating if he was innocent he should have no problem answering questions, well the users on our server have the right to privacy, as well as it states in our rules that it is the user who is complaint responsibility to provide all screenshots. I will tag revanrose6 as she knows a lot more about what your suggesting and may have some important things to say.
No, because #1. it is the users responsibility to take screenshots. #2. We need evidence of the sword actually existing, (A screenshot) and it needs to show the enchants. #3. It is impossible to check where items are thrown with server logs.
Hello, Alright I deal with melon sword cases all the time. First and foremost, we cannot assume that 'it' is the object you are holding in your hand. I realize this may seem silly, but, players accidentally drop items all the time. We therefore have no way of knowing if the item you dropped was part of the deal or not without you or the other player flat out saying "This is a ___" Now, I didn't see your screenshots, but, frequently the player will have a screenshot of them holding a diamond sword giving off the look of being enchanted, but, do not highlight the enchant and do not specify, during the trade, what it is. This being said, at that point all the staff is able to know is that you gave an enchanted diamond sword to the other player. Without knowing the enchants or anything we cannot determine what you need to give back. Now moving onto your second point. First of all, there is a lot of things we, the staff, do that a lot of players don't see. For example, if you file a complaint that has relevant information, sometimes even if we know it is not quite enough information, we will question that player about the incident. This doesn't always happen, but it is frequent. When a melon sword is involved we will ask questions like "What is the name of this sword?" "Is it yours?" If you are renting it, "Who did you rent it from?" This brings me to point 3. We also do, frequently, do investigations. Supermods+ and GameAdmins+ have the ability to do a few things that make it easy to look into a case. But, this comes back to one key issue, we need the original evidence to even consider doing any of these things. Without any evidence that there was a melonsword, we have no rhyme nor reason to look into the issue further. And now, I will be changing gears. I am a Criminal Justice Major and therefore, considering this is phrased to be in reference to the IRL justice system, I will point a few things out. First and foremost 'Reasonable Doubt.' Reasonable Doubt is established irl to ensure that we do not lock up every single person on the street. Reasonable doubt is there to protect the 'defendant.' Oh yes, even the defendant has rights. The defendant has rights to not be put away without having evidence, provided by the prosecution, presented beyond a reasonable doubt. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a funny statement. Yet, in the case of criminal cases, which is what we are generally referencing (as opposed to civil law suits which ECC does not have), Beyond a Reasonable doubt basically means that no reasonable person could doubt the guilt of that person based on the evidence provided. This means there is no chance for a 'maybe he didn't do it.' In the Court System it means that the prosecution has convinced 12 people that a single person is guilty. The concept of reasonable doubt is not if the person may be guilty, we will investigate. Reasonable doubt is elicited from the Court stage of a trial, not the arrest/investigation stage. Reasonable doubt means that if there is a doubt, we will not convict. In the point of ECC, we actually require, arguably, a higher standard. We do not take witnesses, unlike the US Justice system. We do not take anything short of photographic evidence. We require a very high level of evidence. Personally, as I have said and written in tutorials many times, the best way to keep yourself safe on ECC only requires two steps. 1) Be highly specific during trades and make sure they agree. 2) Screenshot all trades. Basically, what I'm saying, because I realize this is getting long winded, we already do a lot of things you are suggesting, you just don't see them. There aren't a ton of things we can do beyond what we do already. If we had the logs checked (only capable of being done by 2 people on ECC) they do not show the name of an item being passed or who picked it up. They don't even show you moved an item. The only things we can rely on, are already being relied on by the ECC staff. We do a lot more behind the scenes then any player (besides ex staff) can imagine. Revanrose6
Burden of proof refers to who's job it is to provide evidence that a crime has occurred and further evidence of who committed this crime. Yet again, in the US Court system this falls upon the Prosecution. It is the Prosecution's job to collect evidence and provide it. In ECC, if we are to compare it to a legal system, the players are the Prosecution and the Defense of their own issues while the Moderators, Moderate the issue. We are the judges, we stand by, we look at your evidence and we act on it as is seen fit by ECC. Therefore, the burden of proof falls onto the accusing player to prove that the accused did something wrong, and if he did, what he did wrong. Revanrose6
Ok if we are going to relate this to the US court system, maybe reasonable doubt was the wrong phrase. In my proposal its more like Reasonable Suspicion which I am sure is the lowest standard of proof which allows any official to frisk or search someone, correct revanrose6 ?
Generally speaking yes, but as I already stated earlier, we already do look into these things, we do question the players, and we do investigations, but only if we believe it is absolutely necessary. If we did it based on every small amount of suspicion we would end up checking every person's inventory on ECC, just in case they have something suspicious. How can I be so sure of that? I get at least 2-3 PMs a day of players wanting me to check another player's inventory because of XYZ. I cannot check it, as per andrew's requirements, unless I personally feel it is necessary. If I don't think it is necessary then I don't do it. Just because a player thinks it is necessary does not mean it is. This all brings me back to my point of take screenshots. In fact, I will be linking the various tutorials provided for how to safely trade: http://www.ecocitycraft.com/forum/threads/a-guide-to-safely-handling-a-melon-sword.52505/ http://www.ecocitycraft.com/forum/threads/safe-loan-lending.55708/ Revanrose6
A good reason for me to be suspicious. A player who is selling a melon sword but shouldn't logically have one. A screenshot complaint that shows you gave that player a melon sword and now they claim they never got it. A lot of things fall under it. These types of things are left up to staff discretion because we, the staff, are trained and learn through experience over time how to deal with these issues. I have been on staff since February. This means I have dealt with these types of issues for 7 months. I can generally tell when an issue holds water versus doesn't. My suspicions are generally right and I thoroughly look into them. If a player provides me with a good enough reason I will look into something very thoroughly. You can ask voiD_yO who is now staff, but before, I helped him retrieve his melon sword. Basically, what I want to know is, what do you want us to do more of? We already investigate, we already question the players involved. There is not much more we can do to be honest. Revanrose6
I'm asking to lower the standards down a peg, I felt my case was enough to prove the theft guilty but to ECC it was not enough to raise suspicion so now I don't know what is enough?
Enderman, If you'd like a thorough explanation of what happened with your specific case. PM me the complaint and we can talk about it on the forum. Revanrose6
Thanks. Most of those I take with normal tools, but I'm talking about just chat logs (game admins or whoever has access) Can you read those?
