Minecraft Name: Dangime Suggestion: I suggest you modify your existing shop signs slightly (or change your shop mod to chestshops) so that they can both buy and sell from a single sign. Since all the functionality already exists, it should not be a difficult modification. In addition there are already mods that do this http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/chestshop/files/31-v3-46/ Also, rather than funds being directly linked to signs, I suggest the funds come directly from a player's /money account as in the mod listed above. Reason: Simply put, the existing shop signs that are running are very inefficent. First they require constant user interaction to either refill them with items or purchase charges, or to collect the items/money. As things stand a shop might be selling an item, but be out of it. 2 squares away another sign is buying the same item and is loaded up with it, but those two signs don't talk to each other. The economy breaks down as a result, even though more of that item is available! A single sign that can both buy and sell solves this problem. Something like: [trade] ITEM ID Buy Price : Sell Price Max # of items that can be bought. This is only a maximum and could be "refilled" by players selling into the sign. Other Information: This suggestion will immediately cut back the number of signs a player needs by half! Also, it will allow for advanced player run automated trading practices that don't require constant interaction. Cash from sales directly goes into your balance. Items you have purchased are immediately available for resale to any interested party at the price you have listed on the same sign. No more constantly checking signs! This also allows a true supply and demand driven economy by using multiple signs to gradually raise or lower the prices of items as signs fill up or empty. Link to this plugin: http://dev.bukkit.org/server-mods/chestshop/files/31-v3-46/ Alternative you could just modify your existing sign shops to 1) allow both buying and selling from the same sign. 2) Credit money earned from sales or needed for purchases directly to the player's main balance rather than a sign.
I understand...once you are comfortable with a system you are reluctant to change. Still, the work is basically done for you, if you decide to put in chest shops. I see no reason why it can't run alongside the familar signs. Thanks for considering.
It's a seperate plugin, and it's also maintained less. We don't need to another plugin for trading when our current system is already working perfectly.
Alright, save the link though. I spoke with one of the developers of the essentials mod and apparently they are going to radically change their trading system once bukkit picks up support for the new villager trading system. It sounds very possible they might be heading in a direction that is "too simple" for a server that focuses on economy. Villager trading is nice and all, but I wouldn't want to be limited to that. Keep that as back up. Never have I heard it to be a plug in that is hard to maintain.
You sound like you are attempting to make them switch while at the same time trying to not look like you are. There are various reasons - good ones - that they do not use chestshops and the like. It's not bias towards what they are used to, it's what works, is easy to use, and reliable. Sure, we could use chestshops, but it's not as reliable for us to get easily fixed and may cause other various problems in the future (Mostly internally, things you'll likely never notice, but still an absolute pain.) A always working economy is better than a "high tech", broken a quarter of the time economy. Even when chestshops are not 'broken', I greatly prefer essentials trade signs myself because of it's simple to use nature that fits perfectly with the economy we use at all times. And I am also 100% sure Andrewkm is aware of any changes that will be taking place in essentials trade signs and stuff. Even if it were to change to a completely different system, it'll still be easier to deal with than chest shops - and I'm not hating on chest shops. For the most part, keeping all economy related things in one plugin makes things extremely simple and easy to maintain, thus, beneficial to the server. Oh, and "Don't fix what's not broken." (I think I said it wrong. Oh well.)
Clearly, I'm pushing it, I suggested it in the first place. I do favor this plug in over the essentials signs. They are much more flexible, and I don't really understand the charge of them being "too complex". Two signs is more complex than 1 sign, and any common RPG since the 80s has let you buy/sell at a merchant, it's not a new concept. I see having to service signs manually as an added labor and complexity. "Entire'y aware?" ^_^; No one is ever entirely aware. Just trying to share info. Yes, I an a proponent of this other system because of what it can do, no more guessing what items are worth, but I can respect the server admin's wishes. Representing chestshops as something that are broken 25% of the time is, innaccurate. Actually, I've never seen them down on other servers I've played. And "Don't fix what isn't broken" works until someone comes along with something better. Otherwise we'd still be banging rocks together to make flint arrows right? I agree that some mods go too far in changing minecraft, but basically we're just talking about preferences between two systems that basically do similar things, one of which is already in place. I have some experience with these things or I wouldn't be suggesting them. Alas, I don't seem to be getting any support here, but I would like at least for them to keep it in mind if they do run into trouble in the future. In some ways, the economy is already being left behind by other economy servers because of the lack of this feature.
I apologize if I came off as rude, and I also will apologize if I still do in this post - I'm not trying to be rude here. Like I said before - what makes it "complex" or otherwise complicated in the system is not in any way how it works in game. It's making it work with other plugins, how well this plugin is maintained, updating it, fixing any issues with it... Things you will likely never notice. It may actually be entirely impossible to add this plugin with our current setup - plugins work very differently than you might expect, sometimes they conflict with each other and just don't work. Other times, it's about having the right economy. There are many economy plugins out there and many plugins made to work around them. Generally, there always will be at least one economy plugin out there not supported by the other plugin. This means that chest shops for example may or may not support the economy we use, or may conflict with it in some way, complicating things and increasing the chances for future issues or complete removal of it. I am not aware if there are any issues with chest shops and our current plugin setup, but I know well enough that even without conflicting plugins, it will still be a huge pain to do for the simple ability to have buy and sell on one block instead of two. I also said 25% of the time as an exaggeration. I probably shouldn't have, but I was just making a point - the plugin will be broken at times, every plugin "breaks" sometimes, and it just adds even more work for Andrew and also can be a pain for users in game when it does as it might lead to a complete loss of items if it breaks just right, causing complete chaos. Sure, this can happen with this economy to, but this economy is different and patching these issues is a lot easier. It's also not necessary to have two economy plugins for trading, it will just cause there to be twice the issues and twice the work. Don't fix what isn't broken, I never said don't upgrade to something better. Chest shop has advantages and disadvantages, unlike your example. They are equal and so switching between them is pointless if the one works fine already. If chest shop had only advantages, I'd be for "fixing what isn't broken" because we aren't fixing it, we are upgrading it. However, since this is not the case, it would be merely "fixing it" or rather changing it to be something that is more optimized towards different setups. I have seen people suggest chest shop before only to get denied again and again - there are good reasons, and so, even though we know about them, they aren't happening. It's been on their mind, just not on their mind as something we need. I also have to comment on the last part... "the economy is already being left behind by other economy servers because of the lack of this feature." I could say there are many things wrong with that, but I'll get to the big point: How does other servers having a buying and selling area take up one block instead of two making us fall behind? That's the main advantage I see here that you are talking about. A true economy is about the users, not the money. The users who want to buy this or that keeping the economy alive, not how simple it is to buy an item from a chest or sign. Most everyone on this server understands trade signs just fine and having them take up two separate blocks is no big deal. I don't see any way how not having chest shops is degrading this server in any way. And this server falling behind does not make much sense to me. Look at minestatus... http://minestatus.net/ Number 11, and there is only one server above us that even mentions economy being a part of their server that I saw. They do not focus on it like here though, so there is no telling if their economy is what got them there or not. So tell me, how are other servers getting ahead of us for having chest shops? It doesn't look like it based on what minestatus says, and minestatus is one of, if not the biggest website for server lists to my knowledge.
No, no I'm enjoying the debate. I don't think anyone is being rude, just a little defensive maybe. But since you asked I will explain what I mean. I won't mention any other servers since I don't want to be seen as advertising them. Obviously if they were perfect I would be playing them instead. They were doing very well on minestatus, until recently, now it looks like the importance of minestatus is less than it was say a year ago when it was pretty much it for voting sites, now there's a dozen of them. Basically, in the sub forum of this very thread you have on going debate threads about how much items are "worth", how much the server should pay for them, and what is a "fair" price. Basically, with the feature of buying and selling from the same sign (and thus the same pool of items) I was able to setup a system where the player's could determine daily, even hourly, the moves of any price for almost any item, not based on what the staff or players thought was right, but on what the actual supply and demand for that item was that day. This happened wither I logged in that day or didn't, unlike the current signs which can be exausted. It was a self-sustaining system. If we were to compare the two systems, this server would be a centrally planned state with a little deregulation to allow players to trade on the side, but the government still props up items artifically at certain levels. Basically, its more of a "nations" server than an "economy" server. The other system I described would be a market economy, where the daily trading determined the price of items. Yes, there is some trading here, but there's little certainty that you can purchase items for the prices quoted and the ranges suggested aren't percise because it relies on people constantly rechecking and reloading signs. Also, I could outline how the server could make more money by avoiding purchasing items for in game money, but that would be a little off topic, but perhaps of interest to the server owners. As long as you keep relying on these signs though, you'll have to keep the server backing up the market because these signs aren't reliable enough for their supply since they must be constantly reloaded. The server on the other hand buys stuff in infinite quantities. I can only take you at your word that chest shops are bad for servers compared to essentials signs. Because essentials comes with it I can see how it might be easier to initially setup, but compared to some of the plugins you seem to be running well (McMMO for one has a rep for being pretty buggy) I don't see how chest shops could be that big of a difference, so yes it seems like you're settling on the easy, comfortable, option. Which is entirely up the the server. You mentioned the chance of the loss of items, but this seems strange because for chest shops items are stored in chests, a default minecraft feature. With esssentials signs, money and items both are stored in a sign, something that doesn't happen in the stock version of the game. I realize the inner workings could go either way, I am just observing which one seems "simplier".
This is a very minimalistic server when it comes to plugins, we wish to use as little plugins as possible while retaining the functionality, adding a new plugin that does the same thing as something we already have is kind of pointless. From what I know, chestshops and the essentials tradesigns are very similar in use, the layout of the signs are similar,both are stable and I haven't come across any big problems using either of them This is also exactly why I don't think we should switch to chestshops, there is no actual improvement. From a user point of view, having chests beneath your signs takes up space and may be ugly/annoying. Essentials tradesigns allows for storing an infinite amount of items in a sign, they are not limited by the contents of the chest. So if I were to compare the two: Essentials tradesigns are more space efficient, even though they have a slightly more advanced layout, it's still easy to learn and distinguish. The biggest reason that I don't want chestshops is because chests can't be placed next to each other, this is extremely space inefficient and if you were to look at the market, it's all about using your space to the fullest. Essentials tradesigns work better for our server and how we have things set up.
Except that you need 2 signs to perform the same functionality as 1 chest shop. Chests can be placed very close together. Just imagine chests staggered over 2 height levels in a W pattern. In the end it takes about the same ammount of space as the current signs. I won't say it's chest shop's strength though because to setup the system I described does take more space, it is also self-sufficent, and both buys and sells in nearly limitless ammounts (since buyers and sellers push against each other). The comforming to the size of the existing market isn't really that important, kind of like saying a car must conform to the size of a horse stable. Also I've outlined show chest shops are better. Self-sufficent, meets player demand for both buying and selling without artifically server support, and has the potential to make the server more money in donations.
Aesthetically, tradesigns are better. Tradesigns are more space efficient. (Even if you require two signs for selling and buying) This is how tradesigns look in a space efficient setup: Spoiler This is how Chestshops look in the most space efficient setup: Spoiler Notice how Chestshops uses more space, they waste spots, they look less organized, trying to click the signs inbetween the chests is a pain and you have less space to walk through. Tradesigns on the other hand have a simple space efficient design that allows for way more placement per shop. for instance, having a 2 wide hallway. You can easily place tradesigns in a 2 wide hallway because you can walk through signs, this is very space efficient. Spoiler With chestshops you would have no walking space at all, this makes things messy, space inefficient and horrible for everyone who has limited space. Spoiler If your walls are 4 high then you can have 8 times as many signs, from which you use 2 per trade signs to show what you are selling/buying, that 4 times as many buy/sell signs, so if you were to have both buy and sell tradesigns then you can have up to 2 times more buy and sell signs (I count buy and sell as one in this case, so 1 buy and 1 sell = 1) combined in comparison to chestshops with both in one sign. Chestshops are too space inefficient and clumsy for us, the more space you can utilize the more money you can make. The pros of chestshops are completely nullified by the cons.
A fair price to sell to the server cannot really be determined easily by how much is sold to it here. People pumpkin farm for hours and hours... but... I don't see people buying tens of thousands of pumpkins, ever, and it completely rules it out as a money maker. Sure, it's not really a 'fair' money maker now in some peoples eyes, but it's always nice to have more options to make money. I'd also like to see an economy where I can make money how I want, not how I need to. What if I want to go mining, but the prices for all ores are really low sell-wise? I can't really mine for a good profit then and I'll always be upset that other people are making more money doing whatever they are doing. I want to choose what I want to do to make money, not what I need to do. A game is supposed to be fun, but it's no fun when I'm extremely limited. As I've said numerous times as of late, there are achievements in games for a reason other than just bragging rights: The real fun isn't the bragging, it was the journey to achieving it. However, if the only way I can achieve it is to do something I don't want to, it was no fun. Seeing as achieving just about anything on this server requires money, I'd have to do what I don't want to do to achieve anything. Most games, if you own them, have a least one thing you want to do that has achievements connected to it. However, if all the achievements are linked to doing something you won't be doing in the game, then you don't have fun getting these achievements. Normally, that's no big deal, just play the part of the game you want to play and ignore the achievements - but it's not that way here. On this server, in most peoples eyes, being a builder makes a big difference in your normal gameplay. What if I want a town but I don't want to get the money for it? Well, I am being forced to do something I don't want to in order to complete what I want to do, and nobody likes that in games. So in order to keep more people interested and having fun, we don't do it that way. There are set prices for things when you sell them to server so there are more ways to make money, because people don't really buy everything, like pumpkins for example. There are many other things as well, like emeralds, diamonds, and EXP here that are all completely user economy and have nothing to do with the set prices from the sub section here. For these items, I can understand completely your point for having it like that, but a change like that shouldn't change server sell prices and those still need to be set "fairly" by the admins. If they are not, things like pumpkin farming would completely die out, because they are not user economy at all due to their nature of being only needed in small amounts. I'm not even sure if you meant it should change server sell prices for it or anything of the sort, however, based on what you said in the beginning of the paragraph, it sure sounds like it. And now I have a headache, so I don't feel like replying to the rest of your post, nor do I think I can think straight right now. >.> I'll be back later to reply to any posts made.
Yes, you can fit more, less capable constant attention demanding shop signs up than chest shops. This is also what, a 15000x15000 server? That you take pride in mentioning? And you don't have enough space to setup a better system that will make you more real money? If you think things like mass pumpkin farming should be the basis of the game, yes all my arguements go out the window. I am talking about having people actually buy the stuff they want, and not waste effort making things only the server will take. I've seen a few towns and castles crafted out of pumpkins, but not many. Here's how it works. When you sell items to the server, the items are destoyed. No one can use those items to build their town or beautify the terrain. Money is also generated, money which presumably is used to purchase useful things like diamonds, and towns, and not useless things like pumpkins. Yes, useless industries will be destroyed if you go to a true market system. People will whine, then suddenly they'll get richer, because the items they are working to make won't be destroyed, instead they'll go into the economy. Prices for useful stuff will actually go down, because people will go to gather useful stuff. I know it's horribly tyrannical to suggest you actually gather useful in demand things. Then you'll have deflation, lowering prices. People will be able to buy more for less. Then here's the kicker. The only sources of new money become 1) voting, 2) donating. Plus voting or donating will get you more "stuff" to work with because those items aren't being destroyed, they're being put into the economy. All of a sudden, you can offer more money to vote, or more money per donation, without wrecking the economy because the size of the real economy is larger. Also you won't have to raise prices for tows and perks every 2 weeks because inflation is eating away at the value of the currency. Basically, it allows the server owner to control the money supply instead of the players, but prices eventually stablize because people can act like rich people, build bigger houses, castles, towns, etc. If supply goes up, people will be able to buy more. Basically its a win/win for the server owner and players. More stuff for players, more donations for the server. Stable economy for all. But...I think I'll leave it here.
In the end, no matter how much we argue, we are talking about economics here. We could go on endlessly and still not come to a conclusion. For the most part, I can see where you are coming from, but I doubt something that is going to change things this drastically is going to come along anytime soon - Everybody is happy with the way things are now and I don't see why we would risk the entire system and basis of the server. It's running just fine without any changes, and changing for the sake of getting just a few more users is likely not worth it for the huge risk of a huge loss of users that comes with it. Edit: Fixed it saying "bases" instead of "basis".
If I may interupt this little slugfest here but I think someone said something that probably changes this whole thing. Besides, I believe you can trade items for items on a trade sign. Example, 64 wheat for 64 seeds. Idk but I playe a server with chest shops. The poor get poorer an occasionally richer, and the rich can only stay he same or get poorer. The current system is much better. I like it but more importantly, AndrewKM and almost everyone else likes it. You can store (to the best of my knowledge) a finite amount of items in a trade sign, you can only fit 27 stacks in a chest. It's not more "space efficient" it's also ridiculously complicated. I like the trade signs because I just plop it on a wall and type the lines and sell sell sell. I also may note that you cannot place trade signs on this server due to your rank.
